Powercolor HD4850 puts AMD in the game
First INQpressions Slayer of Goblins
Product: PowerColor HD 4850
Website: www.powercolor.com
Price: tbc ($200-ish)
WELCOME TO THE WORLD’S worst kept secret. Come June 26th, ATI was supposed to unleash its brand new RV770 marchitecture – which was OK by most people, but nobody (ATI, partners or hacks like us) kept with the programme.
We’ve been beavering away in our lab and we’ve come to two distinct conclusions about the HD4850 / RV770 product – it’s pretty good and it’s pretty hot. Now “good” in the mainstream is usually a measurement of price/performance, and although we haven’t yet received the MSRP for this Powercolor version, we’ve seen prices in the region of 150 €urobucks. Applying the Law of Inevitable Euroscrew, those 150 €urobucks translate to about 200 USD which pits the card against the 9800GTX.
The specs on the HD4850 have been amply disclosed, but we’ll recap: The RV770 core is built on a 55nm process, has a 256mm2 die and 800 unified shaders. The HD 4850 uses 512MB of GDDR3 flowing through a 256-bit bus. The default GPU clock is 625MHz, 993MHz memory but GPU-Z still doesn’t recognize a shader clock. Here’s our GPU-Z shot taken on our system. We’re using an X38 mobo from Intel on this one, so we’ve got PCIe 2.0 although from what we’ve seen on other sites, it doesn’t seem to make a difference in any aspect.
The Powercolor package includes everything you need, from a DVI->HDMI adapter to a Crossfire bridge (a wink at their customers – “Hey, go buy yourself another card”). No games, though, so it’s WYSIWYG. A cursory analysis of the card doesn’t reveal anything astonishing about it, except the single slot cooler that really is compact in design and the dual Crossfire connectors that will allow you to hook up to four of these cards if you like. Ah. It uses just a single six-pin power PCIe power connector and according to the specs, you only need a 450W PSU to operate the whole system (bear in mind, they probably aren't thinking QX CPUs).
Some like it hot…
First things first: AIB partners had no time to doodle with the HD 4850’s
cooler and replace it with something better – so all of the available cards are
reference designs (as opposed to the HD 3850/3870s). You get the same blow-dryer
action on all the cards. What you also get is a nagging feeling there’s
something seriously wrong with the heat venting out of the card.
The HD 4850 idles anywhere between 62 and 70 celsius… Put your hand to any part of the copper surface and you’ll feel the heat (ouch), however, the fan doesn’t seem to speed up or down (except at boot… *whoosh*) and what little air it vents isn’t even hot. The fan’s power connector does look like PWM, but nothing’s going on… Performance and stability, however, are rock solid, even after a few hours of non-stop looping 3D benchmarks.
The Numbers
As far as we can tell, DAAMIT’s done a great job with the RV770 marchitecture
(or at least with the HD4850). While the HD3870 and HD3850 felt slightly
outgunned by Nvidia’s G92, the RV770 looks like it’s inverted that particular
trend. We’ve got some numbers for you, with a 9600GT OC for comparison.
3DMark06 is usually “generous” with ATI but you can’t deny the fact that even under 8xAA/8xAF the HD4850 performs very well. Not GX2- or X2- well, but very well indeed.
Call of Juarez w/ the DX10 Pack Benchmark also shows some significant gains…
World in Conflict… what can we say? ATI’s HD4850 is kicking the competition where it hurts. Even at Very High settings, the game is extremely playable.
Lightmark gives us a feel for what the RV770 marchitecture can do in OpenGL. Considering that OpenGL is used in some Pro apps, gaming isn't really the target here.
The Overclock
You’ll pardon us if we don’t show you a GPU-Z cap with the overclock, but…
we’ll update the graphics on the article soon-ish. Using the ATI Overdrive tool,
we got another odd experience with this card. Hot as it may be, the HD4850 core
on Overdrive overclocked to a successful 690MHz/1069MHz and, although there are
still a few benchmarks to be run on this system, temps seem stable. We’ll update
this article with a new graph with the 690MHz OC (that’s +65MHz over stock)… if
the cores don’t melt on us.
The Reaction
Nvidia has announced price drops and a rapid response to DAAMIT’s 4850 in the
form of the suped-up 9800GTX+. This card will retail at $229 and the original
9800GTX will drop down to $199, meeting ATI on its own ground. However,
availability and performance seem to give ATI a little edge over the 9800GTX.
The single best improvement in the HD4850 seems to be AA performance. Previous
marchitectures were fighting an uphill battle with Nvidia when it came to AA,
but now, this particular card copes with FSAA much better.
The greatest thing ATI has got going for it is one of the Creator’s great cosmic ironies: Intel. Right now if you want the best CPU around then you buy Intel, that’s pretty much a given, but Intel chipsets don’t support SLI, so if you want multi-GPU madness, you go straight to DAAMIT. Essentially Intel is responsible for keeping AMD’s ATI business in the black
The Good – ATI seems to have overcome the AA hurdle quite successfully, single slot design, price seems right.
The Bad – All the cards are reference so: test one, test all, until some sticks an aftermarket cooler, that is…
The Ugly – The core temps… AT IDLE.
Bartender’s Rating
Comments
$200 billing electric / year?
I don't think nvidia ways to cheap 9800 will be works, unless they also reduce the power consumption of their 9800. Who want to buy $200 VGA for $200 electric billing?The Genetics Of One-Sidedness
Whenever the potential is separated from its kinetic, there needs to be some balance to the instability. This is because when a relative gets its “freedom”, it won’t stop at anything. Nvidia is a prime example of a truth not being a principle and therefore exercises its power with arrogance. “Oh, we don’t do that”, is the typical response to any call for balance/redress and entities like these feed off the flames of their fanboys to clinch comfy OEM & killer deals.Much like communism offering some balance to the runaway madness of the so-called capitalists, ATI [buzz-off AMD] is a welcomed respite. The price for these madness must come down because all the shouting ever does is to jack-up the source of the addictions. Fashion, aka perceived power-thru-association, aka making the dumb truly stupid. Price only equates power when you lack the truth which is why easy-come, easy-go then becomes the norm. Destroying one’s valuation – of oneself and others. When it comes to relativities, it doesn’t matter who “wins” for there is no such thing {as winning, i.e. right & wrong} if there is no absoluteness. When the earth starts moving under your feet, stability is what you need most. Not preaching or believing.
Benchies?
bench marks for any other cards??? would like to see how it performs compared to a 9800GTX or the new 280GTXNice graphs.......
That really was a great way to make the 4850 look good, put it up against a card that isn't even in the same league or price point for that matter.Why not put it up against an 8800 GT or even the 9800 GTX?
Oh wait this is the Inq, where fair and reasonable go down the toilet faster than diarrhea after a jalepeno eating contest.
Why no proper comparison?
So, you're saying it's competing with the 9800 on price (and from other reviews performance as well) so why no numbers from a 9800 GTX in the graphs?Either way, the 4850 is a great card on the price/performance scale. Now the only issue is how close will the 4870 be to the GTX280 (if it is indeed a 1 teraFLOP beast as you and ATI suggest)...
NDA?
What is this?It's fine to leak Nvidia scores premature but with ATI you obey their NDAs? Plus, you never really do any real reviews of NV cards nowadays. And with this review you only had 4850 against 9600 GT which was pretty odd.
At least Charlie didn't make the review. That would have made it lose its credibility totally.
[er, See here http://www.theinquirer.net/gb/inquirer/news/2008/06/19/amd-hd-4850-trickle-turns-flood
Now, can you find any 4870 benchies ANYWHERE on the wibblesome web? MOD]
Finally
A decent card has finally emerged from ATI. The only disagreement I have with the testing methodology is not comparing the 8800GT and 9800GTX. One is cheaper than the 4850 and the other will be the same price in a couple of weeks if your sources are correct. Just that I'm a completist.idle temps
I had read that the reason the cards were so hot was the drivers are not yet ready to allow the card to control its fan speed. Hopefully this helps keep the temps down once that's out.Wonder how the new, improved 9800 will perform?
9600GT is only $135 card
You could have picked a better Nvidia card. This card doesn't even beat an 8800GT. Also, I'd like to see the next round of benches have both AA AND AF turned up, and compared to nvidia. Hardocp.com proved this is where the new gtx280/260 shines. In most cases they could run a res higher (2560/1600) and have a few things more turned on to boot. Even the GTX260 was able to beat the 9800GTX SLI and 9800 GX2 in a few games. That's a huge improvement and I don't have to buy a new motherboard to get it. They gave it an editors choice award by the way. How many people buy SLI boards? Or want the heat from two cards in their PC? Isn't SKULLTRAIL SLI capable? :) Are you all going to go switch out your old board to run two ATI's? Last I checked an SLI board cost more money, so tack that on the dual card way also. PSU probably too. Also SLI/CROSSFIRE STUTTERING or worse, not working at all (as anandtech showed in a few games) is making dual cards useless. Single cards HORSEPOWER RULES baby!Having said that, I'll wait for 2 months for Nvidia's (already taped out) die shrink of GTX260/280 to make up my mind. It should be out just in time to combat 4870X2 and be cheaper/faster after die shrink (no doubt they should be able to get another 100+mhz out of it and lower power too). Since most of us idle 90% of the day GTX260/280 look REALLY good over the life of the cards. 4850x2 already idles 50w higher than GTX280, and a single 4850 ties it. What will happen after the die shrink in two months? How's that make 4870x2 look? Will they idle 100w+ more than GTX280 after shrink? EVen before shrink maybe?...LOL No thanks. A 100w bulb running for 2-3yrs is pretty expensive even at 8hr usage. That's about $100 for 3yrs at 10c/kwh. And some places cost up to 10-16c/kwh (CA/NY/ME/VT etc). Figure that into the cost of those 2 4870's...ROFL.
9600GT is only $135 card
You could have picked a better Nvidia card. This card doesn't even beat an 8800GT. Also, I'd like to see the next round of benches have both AA AND AF turned up, and compared to nvidia. Hardocp.com proved this is where the new gtx280/260 shines. In most cases they could run a res higher (2560/1600) and have a few things more turned on to boot. Even the GTX260 was able to beat the 9800GTX SLI and 9800 GX2 in a few games. That's a huge improvement and I don't have to buy a new motherboard to get it. They gave it an editors choice award by the way. How many people buy SLI boards? Or want the heat from two cards in their PC? Isn't SKULLTRAIL SLI capable? :) Are you all going to go switch out your old board to run two ATI's? Last I checked an SLI board cost more money, so tack that on the dual card way also. PSU probably too. Also SLI/CROSSFIRE STUTTERING or worse, not working at all (as anandtech showed in a few games) is making dual cards useless. Single cards HORSEPOWER RULES baby!Having said that, I'll wait for 2 months for Nvidia's (already taped out) die shrink of GTX260/280 to make up my mind. It should be out just in time to combat 4870X2 and be cheaper/faster after die shrink (no doubt they should be able to get another 100+mhz out of it and lower power too). Since most of us idle 90% of the day GTX260/280 look REALLY good over the life of the cards. 4850x2 already idles 50w higher than GTX280, and a single 4850 ties it. What will happen after the die shrink in two months? How's that make 4870x2 look? Will they idle 100w+ more than GTX280 after shrink? EVen before shrink maybe?...LOL No thanks. A 100w bulb running for 2-3yrs is pretty expensive even at 8hr usage. That's about $100 for 3yrs at 10c/kwh. And some places cost up to 10-16c/kwh (CA/NY/ME/VT etc). Figure that into the cost of those 2 4870's...ROFL.
Hello guys!!!
The reason that the 4850 was pitted against the 9600 series is because that is the class it is supposed to be associated with. The 4870 is going to be on the equivicable level with the *800 series cards like the 9800GTX and the 8800's. Look at the designations and you will understand these things9800 GTX+?
This card beats 8800 GT and trades blows with 9800 GTX, garnering better scores in Vantage. It prompted a reaction from the greener side with the + version of its 9800 GTX cards.Excellent ATI
What makes me smile, is even in the face over overwhelming evidence that Nvidia is completely outgunned in this class of video card, there are some Nvidiot comments that still bleat on about "that card costs this much, what about this and that from Nvidia 8800GTX blah blah blah".Face it boys, we are back to dizzy heights of the radeon 9700 days when ATI were kicking Nvidia's arse for 18 months plus, and Nvidia and its Nvidiots kept dishing up the same old rhetoric.
It is indeed quite laughable. ATI has always made the more visually stunning graphics, but their are many who still believe (Nvidia) that its all about frame rate - it is not, its about visual quality.
I am surprised that NVidia don't quote speeds at 240x160 resolution and 8 colors, to clinch the FPS crown.
Read and it weep Nvidiots, because when the 4870 scores come out its going to be even harder to swallow for you.... shame (LOL).
Reviews
There is a review by Guru3D,since yesterday. The Powercolor HD4850 is benched against the 9800:http://www.guru3d.com/article/amd-ati-radeon-hd-4850-review-force-3d--powercolor/
and just saw there's another at Overclocker's club (haven't read it yet . Here they threw it also against the new GTX280 among others)
http://www.overclockersclub.com/reviews/powercolor_hd4850/
Seems it performs pretty well and that the issues regarding AA have been solved
reasonable comparo?
why didn't you guys compare the card against it's intended competitors (8800gt, 9800gtx\gt)? i suppose we'll have to wait for a real review site to post some objective test results...(i can't wait to see 4870 vs 8600gt)
Pretty good actually.
Someone asked for a review versus the 9800GTX,http://www.legionhardware.com/document.php?id=755&p=4
The Heat is on.
Wow, 8.5 drivers, cooking at 81C at idle, 83C with full details on COD 4 at 1680 res. With 8.6 drivers the same at idle, COD 4 83C - 87C. With hotfix drivers, the needle is in the first quarter of the metre but the meassurement still reads 81C. Haven't played COD 4 cause I just woke up.At least the card doesn't feel so hot with the hot fix.
Apples and Oranges
Nice job with the comparison there guys. Maybe next week you can run the article showing me how a Corvette can beat a Tiberon in nearly every driving test!Who cares about temps
I don't understand the whining about the heat and cooler. It has been tested that the cooler is actually quieter than what of GTX. It is *very* quiet at idle. Who cares about temps?! Song for ATI's Digital Superstar - RUBY !
Hi, I made a tribute hot song for ATI's Ruby. :) http://rvarga.blog.cz/0806/new-song-bashway-tribute-to-ruby-superstarIt's actually for 4800 Series. :) Hope you will like it.
Enjoy, /ot
9600GT a joke?
Seems to me I've been hearing the praises of the 9600gt's price/performance for weeks on end....All of a sudden its the b@stard child noone so much as wants to look at? ( maybe even beat and kick on a little bit when noones looking)
I'm of the opinion that we will see the 4850 below the $150 price point in NO time seeing as how ATI isn't trying to play Gestapo with the GOOD COMPANIES that move their product.
It's all about price/performance right? This card targets that very segment. ATI cards stay at msrp for all of 5 minutes.
Nvidia better just keep on droppin those prices...
Fans on either side have nothing to complain about, with good competition restored, we all win with better prices.
However I think I'll be replacing this long-toothed 7800gt soon with something wearing Ferrari hues...
Up & Over The Creek
Cryptic incoherence is what best describes your comment. Perhaps you would like to try it again without the zen-master fluff.2 things...
1.) Idle power useage is higher because Power play isn't yet enabled... At least thats what i've been hearing. Thus, the card isn't down clocking in idle all that much (if at all) this will be remedied.2.) Much like my 3870 was; the fan speeds on the card are set artificially low so that its whisper quiet. My 3870 was quite hot as well when i pushed it, and pretty much silent. Use riva tuner, bump up fan speed, and a bit of noise dropped the temp by 30c.
So chances are it'll be a driver update that corrects 1 and 2.
For perspective I was building 5 systems for a client, and ordered some BFG 7600gt cards a while back. When they arrived, and were installed the nvidia driver issue of the time with specific card revision was unable to drop the fan speed below max. These were not new cards by any stretch... And so comparing a card thats warm but 100% stable and silent vs. a card that sounds like a hair dryer with a teeny fan at 6000 rpm for no reason whatsoever, i'll take the hot stable silent card each and every time. (eventually a driver update fixed the issue, however i had already exchanged the vid cards for the crappier 8500 of the same price as for a 2d graphics machine noice mattered more then 3d marks.
ATI/AMD......way to go!
Yes, i must of admit that the test bench you put together is not a very good one. Even if you had the 9600GT overclocked to DEATH it still wouldn't touch the HD 4850 @STOCK. I guess most people here come straight @The Inquirer for benchmarks because from what i've seen around this R770 throws around the GT version for the G92 like a RAG DOLL. I wouldn't worry about the HD 4850/4870 if you have the LATEST GREATEST "GTX280/260. For all of you 3WAY-SLI 280 out there i would start worrying about others with the 3870 Quad FIRE. :)$200 vidcard beats $135 vidcard?
Who could have guessed? Leave it to The Inq to bring us such ground breaking news!I wonder how the $200 HD4850 stacks up against the EVGA Super-clocked (700/2200) 9800GTX that Newegg has in stock for $199.99?
HD4850 v. 9800GTX
You wanted 4850 v. 9800GTX? Here ya go: http://enthusiast.hardocp.com/article.html?art=MTUyNCwxLCxoZW50aHVzaWFzdA==Never mind that the 4850 was *designed from the start* to be a sub-$200 card, and the 9800GTX was a $400 card that saw its price halved when nV spooks saw early benchies from the 4850 and turned into so many Casper clones.
ATI hasn't had a real flamethrower at this price point since the halcyon days of the 9600XT! The very fact that it *can* trade blows with nV's 9800GTX+ (complete with halved price tag and abysmal availability) has neatly flipped things from where they have been for the past two years: as opposed to nV being able to charge basically what it wants and sod everybody else, it must compete on price, it must compete on performance, and it must compete on *availability* (plenty of reference-standard 4850s are in the channel, complete with introductory rebates; however, with performance numbers like this, does it need them?).